Playing Defense
I received an interesting email recently that read as follows.
I actually heard Gil Perl speak many moons before he circulated the now famous pamphlet—and believe it or not I agreed with most of what he said. Most, with one caveat. For 11 out of 12 Jews, secular college will be detrimental to their religious development. For 1 out of 12 Jews, however, it will actually spur their religious development. These are not my words, but those of my mechanech in Michlalah*. (It’s actually based on a larger inyan of the Yehudah/Yosef schism. In short, Yosef would not have become Yosef haTzaddik had he not been in Mitzrayim. He, however, is not representative of the majority of Jews, etc). There is no doubt in my mind that I would not be as committed to Judaism as I am had I not attended a secular university. Would I encourage all 16- year-old girls to leave Bais Yaakov early and enroll in a secular university? Certainly Not. Do I think it is the best place for me? Absolutely! And if you read the pamphlet carefully you’ll notice that it doesn’t say you shouldn't send your kids to secular college, it just says you should know your kids.
As for Stern: It was with the guidance of my teachers at Bais Yaakov that I opted not to go to there. As they will tell you, you’re deluding yourself if you think all is perfect and dandy in Stern. Many girls are better off in a secular environment. True, in both Stern and secular college you are likely to encounter apikorsus, pritzus, etc. But it’s one thing when your goyish professor who lives a clearly hedonistic life states something heretical and a completely different thing when a man adorned with a yarmulke peppers his teachings with heresy. Believe you me, improper clothing seems more acceptable when it’s being worn by you fellow frum Jew than by your non-Jewish peers. In secular college, things are often more black-and-white and it is easier to distinguish wrong from right. In Stern, there are many shades of gray.**
I apologize for my strong tone, but I’m tired of being accused of either being ignorant of the reality on college campuses or apathetic toward my religious identity. Quite frankly, I don’t think I’m guilty of either. Would I lobby you to send your children to my school? No. Would I ask you to look a little deeper before you judge me? I don’t think that’s being unreasonable.
* I went to seminary after a year in college.
** I am by no means condemning Stern. Many of my very religious friends attend SCW and I do believe it is a fine institution. However, it is not the utopian school it is made out to be, and it certainly is not ideal for everyone.
What's a frum girl doing as the sole frum girl on a secular college campus? As the father of two teen aged girls, neither I nor they would consider such an environment as proper for a Bas Torah. Two graduate students from MIT and Harvard, who have MO , as opposed to Charedi backgrounds, advised MO parents to not let their kids attend or dorm at out of town schools such as the Ivies because of the atmosphere of pritzus, drug use, post modernism and PC attacks on Israel. Based upon my own research, even schools such as Barnard and Queens have their problems, as opposed to either Stern or Touro. Chazal warn us not to walk into a physically dangerous atmosphere. The Baalei Mussar and Chasidus also urge us not to walk into a spiritually dangerous environment.My response:
I actually heard Gil Perl speak many moons before he circulated the now famous pamphlet—and believe it or not I agreed with most of what he said. Most, with one caveat. For 11 out of 12 Jews, secular college will be detrimental to their religious development. For 1 out of 12 Jews, however, it will actually spur their religious development. These are not my words, but those of my mechanech in Michlalah*. (It’s actually based on a larger inyan of the Yehudah/Yosef schism. In short, Yosef would not have become Yosef haTzaddik had he not been in Mitzrayim. He, however, is not representative of the majority of Jews, etc). There is no doubt in my mind that I would not be as committed to Judaism as I am had I not attended a secular university. Would I encourage all 16- year-old girls to leave Bais Yaakov early and enroll in a secular university? Certainly Not. Do I think it is the best place for me? Absolutely! And if you read the pamphlet carefully you’ll notice that it doesn’t say you shouldn't send your kids to secular college, it just says you should know your kids.
As for Stern: It was with the guidance of my teachers at Bais Yaakov that I opted not to go to there. As they will tell you, you’re deluding yourself if you think all is perfect and dandy in Stern. Many girls are better off in a secular environment. True, in both Stern and secular college you are likely to encounter apikorsus, pritzus, etc. But it’s one thing when your goyish professor who lives a clearly hedonistic life states something heretical and a completely different thing when a man adorned with a yarmulke peppers his teachings with heresy. Believe you me, improper clothing seems more acceptable when it’s being worn by you fellow frum Jew than by your non-Jewish peers. In secular college, things are often more black-and-white and it is easier to distinguish wrong from right. In Stern, there are many shades of gray.**
I apologize for my strong tone, but I’m tired of being accused of either being ignorant of the reality on college campuses or apathetic toward my religious identity. Quite frankly, I don’t think I’m guilty of either. Would I lobby you to send your children to my school? No. Would I ask you to look a little deeper before you judge me? I don’t think that’s being unreasonable.
* I went to seminary after a year in college.
** I am by no means condemning Stern. Many of my very religious friends attend SCW and I do believe it is a fine institution. However, it is not the utopian school it is made out to be, and it certainly is not ideal for everyone.
10 Comments:
At 12:52 PM, TRW said…
Being another frum college attendee (and I consider myself to be from a "yeshivish" background), I have to agree with Devorah on most things, and add one more-it's very easy to condemn if you're on the outside, but
(1)Not everyone can live in NY and go to Stern/Touro, etc (aside from the points raised regarding it, which I agree with completely)
(2)We are told in the BY school system (seminary included) that suddenly it's the women's role to support her family. So how is one supposed to do that if she can't teach (since that's apparantly the only acceptable thing that doesn't always require a degree)?
(3)Family situations are extremely different. I agree that college is not a good environment, but how can you judge me (or anyone in this case) without knowing my situation or why I have to be here?
So...instead of judging people in college, why don't you follow the advice of that OU letter (I'll try to find the link again) and support the people in college-if you're so worried about us, we'd love to have hashkafa classes and people who are around to help when the issues that you mentioned come up.
At 5:18 PM, Anonymous said…
Devoram, what college do you attend?
At 10:06 AM, Anonymous said…
The other side of a frum person going to a secular college is exposing secular people to the fact that Jews do not fit their preconceived stereotypes. In college I've had people who have never (to their knowledge) met anyone Jewish (and definitely not anyone frum) before. And there are secular Jewish people who learn that Orthodox people aren't like what they thought--and can make them look into religion more. (I convinced a Jewish and not-yet-frum student to come to some Hillel events, telling her they weren't as scary as she thought. She eventually switched to the kosher dining plan!)
As for the non-Jews, one student (from Montana or Wyoming, I think??) had learned in church that Jews were evil. We were lab partners, and she only told me this after discovering that I was Jewish (when I explained why I wouldn't eat the brownies and cookies she was always baking & bringing to study sessions). She said that if I was representitive of all Jews, she was going to "testify" when she went back home over the next break about this. So maybe there'll be a little less sinas yisrael.... This is a great opportunity to be an ohr lagoyim....
At 10:51 AM, TRW said…
..and that's called a "kidush hashem"! Very acceptable, I think..:)
It is true that there are dangers and it's not for everyone. But the emailer can't just condemn us point-blank.
At 7:15 PM, Eli7 said…
i don't have too much to add to this discussion, except my agreement. i spent a year in seminary and then went on to a secular college and am fond of saying that college brainwashed me more than my seminary did. and while i'm not so certain where i would be if i went straight to college without seminary, i am sure that seminary wouldn't have had the impact it did if i hadn't gone to college afterwards. because in college, i saw all these people who called themselves orthodox but were, ummmm, not. not even close. (someone subsequently told me that he's come to the conclusion that being orthhodox on our campus means you daven at the orthodox minyan on friday night.) and so, then i had to admit that being frum meant going all the way, meant doing it the way they had taught in seminary. i don't think that i would have had that realization in stern and i would not be as dedicated to judaism without it, so... basically, secular college can be a good thing or a bad thing. it was a good thing for me and i don't think it's fair to condemn it for all orthodox jews though i will grant that it can also be a really bad thing. it all boils down to who you are, i guess. the question really is, how do you distinguish those that should go to secular college fromthose who shouldn't?
At 12:39 AM, Keren Perles said…
Wow do I have a bunch of comments to make!
--First of all, I'll give you the same challenge I gave the posters over at FJIC. Pretend that this is a conversation board for a bunch of frum kids that go to public school. Replace all the words "college" with "public school". Then see how it reads and if you still agree with yourselves.
--As for the "we have to support our family" bit, there ARE ways to support them besides teaching that may just not be quite as "glorious" as a professional career. People have stores in their basements, do services for other people, run playgroups, work in offices, etc. No, they don't pay as well, but that's a sacrifice that some people are willing to make. (C'mon, yell at me for this one. I see your lips curling...)
--Yosef, poor soul, would probably be very unhappy with his supposed stance on this whole situation. First of all, he was YOSEF HaTzadik so he could handle it. Who says YOU can? Second of all, am I remembering incorrectly or did Mrs. S say that Yosef felt like this because he had learned Toras Shem V'Aver? And isn't that Torah about "How to SURVIVE in galus?" Meaning like you're stuck there and need some strategies on how not to get swept away by the tide...?
--It's amazing that you can be an ohr lagoyim in college. But you can do the same thing in your front yard; people look at you there too. And it's different to volunteer to go somewhere (for example to a college campus) specifically for kiruv purposes than it is to go to college and oops while you're there you can get some kiruv done too and use it for an excuse for why college is okay.
--Eli7, so it's strange that you're commenting on how seeing other "frum" Jews not be really frum made you strengthen your own yiddishkeit, because weren't a good number of those kids originally frum? And then they went to college...So your argument is really proving the opposite. Putting a teenage kid in a jail for homocidal killers may turn him off of violence because he sees how horrible they are, but then again, who's to say that the opposite won't happen? And who would take that chance?
--And I keep on reading things here about how "this email can't just condemn us point blank" and "look a little bit deeper before you judge me". Could it be that you're all acting a bit defensive? If you weren't there, would you feel so strongly about it? Honestly, strip yourself of your bias and see if your bare self feels the same.
At 1:16 AM, Devorah said…
Das--Hmm, if you'd characterize your background as "yeshivish," just out of
curiosity, how would you characterize mine? I ask because I get the
feeling that the individual who emailed me was under the impression
that I had a MO background. In certain MO circles, the Ivies are
idolized; attending such a university is set as the ultimate goal.
The statistics are staggering. More than 25% of those who attended a
Jewish day school and a yeshiva in Israel stop being frum within their
first year of college. (The percentage is even higher at Penn sadly.
This according to Gil Perl, who I think is a prime example of someone
who became much more religious as a result of attending college.)
Therefore, I do feel his question was warranted, especially if he
assumed that I was raised in such an environment.
Even in Bais Yaakov we were never taught that it's a women's role to
support her family. Parnassah has and will always be a man's
responsibility. Then again, I don't know what they preach in Bnos
Chava…
Stx—read the post again. I was referring to my mechanech, R’ Kermaier. And his words were exactly as I wrote them: “Yosef would not have become Yosef haTzaddik had he not been in Mitzrayim.” He wasn’t referred to as Yosef haTzaddik before then. It was only after his trials and tribulations in Mitzrayim that he was awarded that title. I don’t think Yosef is rolling over in his grave from R’ Kermaier’s comments. Both you and I know that R’ Kermaier is certainly lamed vavnik material and would NEVER pervert Torah.
As for the public school reference—I very much disagree. It’s one thing to provide a child with a strong Jewish education and then allow them to face such challenges post-high school. It’s entirely different thing to never provide a child with a foundation and then expect them to stay afloat. Perhaps as Gil Perl suggests, it may be best to delay attending a secular institution until one reaches grad school level and is at a much less influential age. In any event, I believe, as I mentioned in my post, that secular college is only beneficial for a MINORITY of Jews and am by no means encouraging the masses to enroll.
Of course I became defensive, hence the title of this post. But I bet you would be offended if someone implied that you could care less about your Judaism. You think I’m biased, fine. We’re all biased, according to both Chazal and Postmodernism. I stand by my position. Do you doubt that I’m a more passionate Jew as a result of attending college??
At 5:58 PM, TRW said…
As much as I am soooo grateful for my BY and BC experiences...Devorah-you never heard anything about Kollel in BY? It's true-it was more whammed into our heads at BC, and I had a lot of trouble with it...they expressed it as the beauty of deciding to go to work to allow your husband to be engrossed in Torah. My problem was that it gives the wife the double job of mother and financial supporter-I don't think that the wife can do the job of the mother and father...
Stx-Rhetorical question-Why are you in college? Every situation is different, and every person has their reasons. It is spiritually awful, but everyone there has to be there for one reason or another (some better than others).
At 10:16 PM, Eli7 said…
ok, there's alot i could respond to but being that i have to go find Nietzsche quotes, i'll make this short (i know,i know, famous last words). i'm just going to respond to stx's comemnt that my comment proves the opposite of what i wanted it to prove. and of course i'm going to disagree. (what are friends for?) true, that part of what strengthened me in college was viewing other people who call themselves frum but aren't quite what i'd consider frum BUT not all of them becamneless frum in college - alot of them are just reflective of a disheartening cross-section of "orthodox" jews in america. it just became clearer to me while watching them that they were sooo far from where i want to be. and i'm not sure i would have seen it to the same extent without college. and true, some of them are people that became les frum in college but that all goes back to my question, how do you differentiate between the people who will benefit from college and the people who won't? it doesn't disprove my point, it just makes my question stronger because college can clearly have both positive and negative effects on people (in more ways than one).
At 12:16 AM, Keren Perles said…
I'm sorry all you. As you could probably tell from the tone of my previous post, I wasn't really attacking any of ur views, i was just kinda upset and venting on Vora's blog (as a very astute friend realized). I still hold that most people that think that college is okay wouldn't think that if they weren't there, but then again, the opposite it true as well. I'm not making any sense. I'm rambling. I'm half asleep. Gnite all...
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